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(1)Out. Minoru. Betsuyaku. and. RobeI･七. Shimizu. playwrights. and. theater. has. The. interviews August. (Tokyo,. English. Shimizu. shimizu. did. ethos. of his. the. for. interview. intentions,. is. as. for. dramatists:. 丘gures. Lillian. as. series with. Contemporary. there. are. Theatre. Japan,. The. the. content. Sam. and. from of. an. Press. a. 1960s.. an. interview. coffee. aesthetic. and. interview the. Sam. of. Tennessee. for. contemporary. Koreya. Masakazu. interviewer. reveals. especially,. in Mask. is to. ask. artist's. the. and. concerns. and. work･ of. it. the. can. provide. attitudes. and. and. British Dreams: of such. Conversations Intervieu)s drama,. Japanese Hideo. in. Concerned. Sword･2). intelligent, To. some. description. the recent. Kanze. with. of brevity,. Literary. ; and,. As. identi丘cation. of interviews. in the. to. seem. in American. collections. Williams. of Mississippi. of the. Shepard. excellent. revisions･. American. of. my. interview-. changes. socio-political. in. me. for. Betsuyaku's. interviews. recent. by. make. tool, for. research. of Senda. knowledge. a. to. interest. In the. useful. Playwrights.. of Yamazaki of. a. artist's. Shepard;. interviews. task. major. sprlng. is potentially. the. their. of. the. since. an. close. shop･. Women. and. too. in. Hellman. valuable. from. somewhat. by. others. significant. his. University. of the. more. writing. demonstrated. of. Shimizu's. example,. the. vibrant. informant. opportunity. interview-for. example,. Imagination. the. of each. into. little. the. recorded. native. out. form. and. of time. passage. given. the. a. of. insight. considerable. by. transcribed. plays. active. creative,. and. culture. youth. nurture. conducted. were. not.. remain. playwrights･. were. did. to. Theater. Likewise,. Betsuyaku,. considerable. himself. edited. penchant. The. the. Betsuyaku. free. to. were. questions. printed. here. Betsuyaku. so,. of. younger. 1983), then. and. desire. a. reaect. by. Given. translation･. both. taken. followed. Shimizu,. by. Little. later, both. scene･. continues. (b･ 1937) gained the. of. years. theatrical. and. root. heyday. the. Twenty. Japanese. Minoru. Betsuyaku. during. in Japan.1'. taken. path. been. two. Japanese. The. The. artists.. generation. the. has. phenomenon. theater. ing,. 1960s,. the. on. signi丘cantfigures. Rolf. (b. 1936) and. in the. (Sho-gekijo-undo-). Movement. that. Kunio. initial reputations. their. Kunio. Sixties, Shimizu. of the. provocative. some. questions therefore,. extent,. interviewer. as. much. as.

(2) 78. Robert. those. interviewee.. the. of. interviewer. the. Any. inadequacies. than. rather. Rolf. the. of. in these. interviews. Shimizu. playwrights. re丑ect. those. and. Betsuyaku. Kunio. of. Minoru.. SⅡIMIZU I.. BegirLnings;. TheatricalAfBliations. INTERVIEWER:. What. businessman. or. novelist. SHIMIZU:. I. blind. goze,. stories. and. things. from. My lots. their. women. who. ballads. to. our. stories. for. formed. habit. the. pattern. to. wrltlng. Plays,. novelistic. style,. the. theater. seriously. through. have. art,. INTERVIEWER SHIMIZU:. Signatory. playwrighting sioned. me. hana-o. saso-. few. years. to. write. yo)], later,. play. to. a. which Ninagawa. so. of. such. fact. that. important.. was. to. and They. on.. In. the. such,. then. That. musピve. high. junior. I naturally. style,. been. l. The. style.. Case,. someone. school. 1n. my. together. pleCe. is to be. even. usual. literature-. a. gravitated. rather. Seihai,. [Tomorrow Yukio,. not. stage. than. the. I preferred. three-dimensionality'of you. Stage. art. in theatrical have. Waseda. at won. a. I'll Put. director. now. sound. sculpture. gave. me. University.. The丘rst. play. a. Waseda. theater. There. at. the. I. University. company,. performed. active. an. art.. with?. in. in. more. associated. Flowers. of mine. Ⅰむst. been. you. prize. professional. may art. That. say.. might. a. art.. This. wrltlng.. the. first play the. on. JOln. paintings,. troupes. a. work. to. me. than. interest. an. led. which. I could. side,. (1958)]. the. art,. to. student. and. became. learned. and. conversational. rather. (Shomeinin). a. We. department. set-building,. theatrical. while. competition,. of. recltlng. conversational. ;. that. so. other. led. Which. I began. [The. wrote. the. which :. in. for. drawn. was. on. nothing. in stage. precise, I. of sculpture.. Paintings interest. be. to. tradition. uncongenial.. college,. but,. of. to town. that. such. theater.. in. fondness. my. l entered. specious,. nature. was. side. a. town. talk.. and. in little magazines. l found. which. said. literature. write. to. they. this, to. university. I could. which. so. memos. when. approached rather. a. with. when. l said. that. traced. point. simple. participate. factor. group. study. be. attracted. of writing. from. wandering. and. so. Sea. minstrel. accompaniment.. can. the. that,. becomlng. and. Another. in college to. than. Japan. the. on. well-known. familiarity. early. get. enterlng. youth. livings. shamisen. My. another. is the. there. own. rather. playwright,. area,. provincial. bits of dialogue-so. my. when. struck. their. a. you?. very. their. made. don't. and. responsible. a. where. theater. with. this. have. in. mothers.. provincials. else said. born. become. to. you. what. Prefecture,. beginnlng. of. or. was. in Niigata. Japan. led. KUNIO. commis-. (Ashita. soho-ni. [July 1960] Teikoku. A. Gekij6 ).

(3) and. Sixties,. was. with. Seihai. became. names. Gekij6. [1968]. prlmarily. them.. been. established. I've. for. another. the. for. whereas. for. plays great. for. of the. large. INTERVIEWER. described of many. one. did. plays. after. the. Sakurasha l. have. SOme. the. I. that. me. troupes. spaces. in the. orthodox, two. the. genres,. it has. of space, of. and. experimental,. maintained. terms. little about. a. been. troupes. small. involvement. your. were. and. We. do. hand,. the. Mokut6sha. I began. and. the. with. qulte. Akaishi in. the. Ⅶ ith tbeI□ in their. collaborated. use. the. of their. being. a. members. of the. in. its activities,. years. several tO. pleCeS,. young. Sakurasha;. the. Mokut6sha. the. COnSCious. and. Rekuramusha,. the of. I just. troupe. the. breakup. little theater. the. in. started. the. after. been. have. 'Akaishi. with.. myself.. we. Takeo. Akaishi. appeared. other. the. activities. splrlt. genre. bit. Rekura-. Of. sister. a. for. l could. whenever. ex-. years.. Director/Playwright. the. of. You. INTERVIEWER: I would. like to askyou What. period. is. think. an. ideal. SHIMIZU: l. the. to. about. is the. your. director. a. director.. as. work. length. actual. a. course,. of your. as. First. rehearsal. a. as. well. playwright.. of all, the. periods. and. formy. works,. rehearsal do. what. you. length?. the. with. two. rehearse play,. of. are,. I feel about faced. am. I've yet with. the. fellow. young. and. made.. I've. Ⅰ王. Problems. that. a. disba‡1ded;. assisted. And. troupe.. was. Betsuyaku. just On. perimental.. tell. you. groups. by. they. musha. Could. Ninagawa young. distinctions. w rite. in. And. for. b上lt. writing,. large. more. I've. genre. which. theaters.. There that. but. large.. both. to. as. and troupes. newer. adventuresome,. that. plays. the. the. are. works. Bungakuza,. when. for. my. Mokuti≡sha?. and. SHIMIZU:. to. be. can. staged. puzzled. of play. variously;. for. those. me. :. Rekuramusha. l write. criticized. and. i. latter. [1972]. With. distinction. kind. Sakurasha,. and. cope. rather. conscious. the. troupes. troupes. stimulus. those. With. been. one. written. Ⅰ've been. small. a. tO. trying. plays.. Gendaijin. Haiy缶za,. the. my. the. the. I introduced. for. of. troupe,. a. troupe,. plays. have. several. started. new. majors. made. ones.. larger. the. write. the. not. a. 79. MiI10ru. in. acted. he. center.. people. probably. small. sense.. negative. some. I have. writes.. unconsciously. to. troupes,. Consequently,. Shimizu. the. commissioned. and. Later,. disbanded, at. aⅢd Betsuyaku. directed. and. that. through. Kunio. Sbimizu. together.. after. Ninagawa. the. Japan.. for. then,. ,･. Ⅰ've also Mingei,. linked. director. the. with. a. of the. elsewhere,. Our. in. Out. which. two. months. formidable. creates. problem For. months. a. would. major. some. beideal. the play. of getting reason. bottleneck.. I always. written. manage. Ⅰ'm afraid. but. that,. to. do. quickly. to. be. aside. late from.

(4) Robert. 80. in connection. exhibitions I only. direct. own. my. Sometimes. Of. course,. when. I'm. completed.. But. with. which. the. l. actors. latter. speaking. half. the. of. the. we. good the. writing. a. midway, for. play. into. for. it changes. their. Including. better.. on. As. to. half. l listen. to. the. revISlng. steadily. it amounts. that,. all. it. half. play. the血st. rehearse. I go. movements,. the. with. the. rebearsals･. else, I deliver. rehearsals we. little self-. a. start. and. someone. When. results.. be. to. like,. the. or. classes. me. allows. stop. go. rest,. observe. play.. play,. write. group. produces. and. That. to. own. my. on. go. half. commissioned. sometimes. it while. of. Mokut6sha.. l write. department. theater. university. group,. indulgent.. done,. with. Rolf. forty. about. days. of. rehearsals. INTERVIEWER SHIMIZU:. That's. with. as. myself. Take. have. they. it will. actively. Ⅰ'm good. can. I could. them. as. the. at. I want. the but. actors. it is. taken. best. the. and. When. but l. a. myself.. man. don't. with. the. old friend. and. do tO. glVe. I. his. know. director,. they. to. very. work. or. what. if I did, it would. own. work,. he. unless. I. self-complacency. it is. and. I direct.. when. am. play. don't. tell everyone. but. questions. area. an. he. of mine,. excellent. the. to. work. good that. play. begin. them;. self一点attery. I cah't. is. satis丘ed. atmosphere.. praises. a. a. by. it impossible. what. It. about. just. the actors. play,. good. totell. as. can. I. an. their imaglnations a. an. what. it praised. I丘nd. actors. play,. hear. much. odd.. the. a new. creating. very. is of. about. with. in that. He. rehearsals. actors. and. work. type. telling. approach answer. circuitous. between. that. personality, by. the. they. good. not. communication. example.. begins. to. When be. somewhat. begin. for. confronted. it must watch. as. they. when. I'm. and. say. bit insecure;. a. about,. I must. character.. Yukio,. not.. I've written.. intense. wish. or. my. he. I'm. that. asked. with. When. Japanese. Japanese an. person. but. them.. common. play. strike has. a. you. enthusiastically. minds. One. reason. Ninagawa. begood. their. up. make. a. works,. before. whether. for. speak. It's not. works,. the actors?. and. first thing. own. my. them.. very. director. the. fails to. never. a. the. critic of my. astute. a. For. direct. yourself. The. question.. I only. of. between. trust. establish. di位cult. is that. It's di氏cult. actors.. you. very. director. a. like directlng･. do. a. director. a. as. myself. How. :. about. enthuse. It has. been. communication over. still agonlZlng. aS. a. director. INTERVIEWER: be. must. familiar. friends.. Or. do. SHIMIZU my. place,. tions.. We. you. always. don't. as. your. actors,. rely. Since. : we. with. Still,. give. upon. I have have the. you. say,. many. extremely. hodgepodge. by. appearances. from. direct. only. young. various impression. own. your. Some. idiosyncrasies.. their. guest. people. you. people people. troupes. of the. group, even. must. from among. participate producer. other. be. you. old. groups?. the in. so. our. system,. actors. at. producbut. we.

(5) Out. do. have. invariably. some. and. have. you. perhaps. do. you. four. have. You. :. Sbimizu. from. people. INTERVIEWER but. Sixties,. the. of. to. but. what. Betsuyaku. and. troupes. or丘ve. already. something. not,. Kunio. participatlng･. Some. of your. plays do. somewhat,. direct. you. disadvantages. or. advantages. question. next. my. answered. add･. 81. MiI10ru. yourself in either. you血d. case? To. sHIMIZU: finish. a. hours. in. but. the. with. me. day;. which. l carry. stages. of rehearsals he. sometimes thinks. and. the. waits. have. results. in directing. INTERVIEWER:. darkness To In. To. the. killed. but. in. so. In another. it. says. dark,. are. but. l. was. my. even. them. WilliarLIS. Flowers. for. mornlng･. In Tomorrow. works. especially. I'll Put. There? then. their spirits,. up. pick. as. such. works,. I'll Put. to. the. produced. early. try. and. characteristics. wait. Both. old･. a. [1aughs]. waiting･. necessity. Tomorrow. killed･. early. the. makes. ones. earlier darkness. the. Which. loss. a. to. explain. are. many. There,. Flowers. 1'd say. dark.. seem. dark. so. is presented,. early. my. by. resolved. is. my. recent. the. probably. it doesn't. whereas. in. vaiting. the also. and killing. a. long. interested. as. Sincerity. line to buy. tickets;. is killed should. killings,. be. by cut. in what. the. people. from comes. the. but. now,. works. with. SuPerjiciality OverJiowing. something. I think. now,. they,re. if you're. woman. and. years. is that. your. Of. work;. disadvantage. personal. despair. man. eighteen. end. ln. bow. play,. (1968),people along,. and. What. at. by. strnck. or. artistic. and. reread. come. anymore.. Ⅰ,m rather am. what. to. deformed. of the. some. doing. it after. begin. ; Tennessee. about. themt. father.. way. directly. Plays. you. ask. young. I don't丘nd. straightforward out. Shimizu's. certain. the greatest. keep. can. you. at. immediately. get. misshapen,. advantage. so. approaching. a. the. darker･. are. only. (Asa-ni shisu) (1958) and. Twenty. sHIMIZU: plays. boss,. First,. Mormng. kills the. son. the. of. disillusionment. in the. escape,. the. doubts,. advises. problem. can't. still. That's. good･. About. you're. plays.. in the Morning. they,re to. your. Die. very. Ⅰ'd like to. and. Die. been. not. a. with. up. and. the. sees. by. decides. not. I. after. twenty-four. plagued. I occasionally. play;. I've wound. times. play,. the. not. or. if they. case･,. of the. director. it. he. times. other. Bve. I'm. excellent do. disadvantages,. or. hours. can. in my. if it,s. Characteristics. ⅠⅠⅠ. GerLeral. of. and. work･. the. An. actors. But. way.. for four. w.aking. rebearsals･. patiently,. own. so. or. for. as. said,. already. masterpleCe. the. generally. your. little late with. themes. to. Several. text.. a. ten. other. I wonder. times,. the. alter. it,s. whether. of another. it several. I've. what. Ⅰ,m convinced. play, a. to. add. in. the. ones. i. them. see. mention･. you. (Shinjo-afururu keihakusa) then. in the ending･. before. l. when. a. man. young. line･. Looking. Having. the killing･. him. comes. back. killed. His beiog. on. is. killed.

(6) 82. Robert. like. was. fourth. the. l admit. although. When. I. see. were. Family. my. is the. Embrace. plays. the. it. can. diminution. has. image. hayaku). objective. was. be. or. that. l. that. was. audiences stopped. in. I. that. as. space. a. new. a. ushg I succeeded. myself. vast. variety. poems. in achieving. and that. You. music a. Put. great. Flowers. Lost!:. The. Play. frequent. also make. (Seishun. poem. Aragon. same. about. no. poem. suna. With. no. nanto. what. artistic. life. with. is. use. slngle. someone. articles. used. a. or. else's. reference. K6tar6, meanlng.. Aragon. divergence,. and and. were. misconcepThere. I want. must. bound. to. a. words,. not. works,. but. To. create. when. There. mean-. I realized my. that. poetry a. a. I found. single. line of loglC.. on.. 丘11 in. to. Impasse,. Japanese. times. if it. as. my. but. so. and. poetry.. writing. not. something. just. when a. too,. must,. quotation.. about. at. followed. a. I. miscalculation. realized. as. When. words.. same. him,. I eventually to. My else. recognlZe. When. quotations.. youth.. everyone. quotations. to. of. use. much,. Takamura. of the. continuation. with. seems. Pll. Be. Quickly. would. use. always. poets,. a. with. is their lyrlCISm-. The. miscalculations. place. of newspaper. Japanese. Japanese. I. I had. mean皿g■. a. come. with. in the. to丘11. of. audience.. Aragon･. frequent. very. won't. in which. And. Shitto) (1982).. question･M. l made. that. in. audience. quoted. wbicb. wrote a. I quoted. work･. the is the. be. to. unable. inject. to. Rilke. be:. to. 丘11 in. I tried quoting. when. that. situation. to. period. Rilke. since. some. poems? l made. l liked. plays. What. 1ng･. early. stage.. To. gekihen) (1981).. Pushkin,. Western. these. Fated. him endings. concludes. in Tomorrou). canary. (Wakareru. the. there. as. such. l told. dramas. of your. that. play. the. approach. Lovers. :. yo. the. achieved. Parting. found. too, a. if the. novels. when. he,. better. been. for. and. on. you. in. put. not. second. silence,. it wasn't. be. would. In retrospect,. the. I would. poetry. several. A. Therefore,. convinced. have. when. characteristic. of youth,. tell. The. tion.. was. Reasons. that. How of Youth, Jealousy (1982,. 1982,. In my. when. which. butterflies. Sand. l quoted. be,. uTo. form.. of. of lengthy. works;. maudlin.. koibitotachi. quote. assum皿g. that. l. author. sentimentality. with. the. The. you. SHIMIZU: to. into. of poetry-Rilke,. (1980) and. wanted. why. could. is that. in the Mormng,. of. both. do. fact. dominant. A. ushinawareta. in. used. the. extremely. Die. of quotations. was. Nobuo,. confessed. simple. imagination. in To. (Arakajime. depth. of my. he. them,. becomes. :. dwarves. use. matter. feel they. More. many. dissolve. INTERVIEWER. the. seen. The. easily. of the. There,. Kojima. I felt about. Ⅶ■hole play. the. been. I always. now,. endings.. novelist. superfluous.. killing,. have. a. (Ho-yo- kazoku) (1965) and, recently,. how. ago. my. symphony,. must. works. the. riy虎) (1982). Kojima years. that. early from. cut. There. way･. it's dark,. a. of. so.. excessively. killings. movement. Rolf. own.. didn't struck. divergence, were. I didn't.. times That. I.

(7) Out. is,. times. at. Ⅰ've. the. in others. effectively, is. one. divergence. artistic. I'm. a. In. brie且y. obtrusively,. One. dependently,. in. be. may. be. critics,. some. and the. plays. but. sound. to. speak. the. better. audience.. I've. given. my. are. poems. used. is suspect;. result. the. without. the. poem;. that. that. the. used. in-. materializes.. Sand. Youth,. How. the. end,. of. beginning. and. but. Williams. it also. Quickly. the in. whereas. to. mean. is. poem. it occupies. Jealousy. in. can't. write,. the. Cotton.. of. one-act. I also. My. slumps. work. l have. a. three. for. two. only. is the. Was. its negative. term. the. relentlessly. in. level,. one-act. plays, 27. Blues, Tennessee. to. them. when seldom. Wagons. Williams's my. plays.. in Dostoyevsky,. writing. The. while. Williams's. one-act. I. that. plays. to. in that. of importance. to. has For. you?. one. dialogue. at. least,. When With. with. dialogue.. one. two. all dramas. not. to. one. for That. thesis?. graduation. unable. to. of. dialogue.. me. his,. as. clearcut. one. are. plays. compose. Williams.. Williams's. dialogue,. for. but. quality. university. I'm. to. can. so. not. to. one. write;. the. is one. Williams's. is often. your. in. write. to. Betsuyaku. method. interested. easy. Tennessee. side,. my. in Tennessee. And on. but. Tennessee. me. dialogue.. about. 2;. very. Besides. one-act go. beyond. been. there. that. any their. example,. It may. [1augbs]. plays.. of Tennessee. ,aspect lyricism. or. depictions. in disintegration?. of personalities SHIMIZU. Tennessee. personal. characterization. inability. an. there. for. INTERVIEWER: plays. turn. reread. it is. extremely lS. but. :. SHIMIZU:. Ifirst. often. But. a. American. ones,. the. on. Williams's. one-act. anxiety. seems. thing. INTERVIEWER. Williams's. am. course,. characters】. principle. but. Tennessee. slump,. 1, MAN. I. Of. difncult.. seems. MAN. drama. characters,. a. Folk.. it usually. slump. does. what. question,. summarize;. re-examine. involve. in principle,. although,. next. in-. i亡stand. make. of dialogue.. always. writing. to. all of the. Poor. fundamentals. the. sense. or. Karamazov,. Brothers. the. foundation,'Ⅰ've. a. Shakespeare. read. to. I reread. I fall into. When to血d. plays. meanlng.. is di氏cult. but nearly. ones,. multi-act. Full. in unnecessary. to. was. you? too,. slump,. objective. on. move. This,. a. My. resulted. To. SHIMIZU: I'm. have. independent.. scene,. INTERVIEWER:. it. to. 83. scene.. SHIMIZU:. a. although. never. begin. Japanese. absolutely. The. the. at. that. Minoru. Betsuyaku. and. and. many. would. after. INTERVIEWER:. isolated. intention. that. Kunio. from. told. the. play. Shimizu. remain. question. Ⅰ've been. explanations.. Jealousy. did. poems. into this. run. Sixties,. the. of. :. "power. At of. describe. in Tennessee. work older the. sister.". doings. of. Williams's I. sense. people. that entangled. plays. is what. force in. at. the. l idiosyncratically. work family. in or. plays. the. that. land.. I.

(8) 84. Robert. think. you. Solitary. understand As. in且uence. Flame. a. (Hi. The. The. Play. is alluded. to. as. SHIMIZU. Chekhov. for. appear. What. plays,. a. I. way,. IV.. Some. be. in. problem. of identity. is. appears. in. Older. With. an. SHIMIZU: matter. for. When. like. me,. Days. (Ano. in. Omuta. Omuta such. suffered as. regression. a. Kishida. Japan. regularly. Ky6ko,. having. Yoshiyuki. them. As. one's. in The. Solitary. is that. plays. nearby.. As. Youth,. of. or. This. others.. Hou). What. Flame.. a. doubting. of to. relationship. Sand. one. Quickly and. is the. source. of. experience. that. it. one. illnesses,. the. of. play. the. I. works. aS. Protagonist. an. being. due but they. there forgot. a. was. who. in my. speech they. who. loss. were.. coal. There. carbon exhibited. in the. American. The. retained was. on. mines. suffered. exogenous.. They. Those. I gathered. survivors As. amnesia.. on. play. Miike. the. at. hundred. monoxide.. kiln,. a. impression. material. miner. was. might. device,. a. strong. from. or丘ve. loss. to carbon. a. made. retrograde. memory. as. that. no. concept.. explosion. died, but the four one. loss. a. wrote. on. my. devices. critics'satisfaction. l based. (1942), the damage. to. as. lines,. the. out. spin. different. memory. personal express. to. considers. I hit upon. pots.. using. course,. is trying. and. it. cigarettes,. of. play. is, I hit upon. Many. brain. a. That. This. Harvest. smoking and,. preponderance. in. day,. your. reconfirm. pattern,. baking. Kyushu,. of. Random. movie. the. not. could. poisonlng.. assortment. is the. actresses. every. in. theme. writes. hitachi) (1966),. in. monoxide an. is. incident.. speci丘c. to. Sister. or. kiln-for. source. althoughI. man.. of. plays. Noriko,. them. theme. principal. dialogue.. generating Another. a. a. essence. charac-. it nostalgically.. Plays. need. one. form. the. what. function. a. passionate. it?. to. attraction. from. common. the. lS,. one. Who. for you?. to. respond. of your. Williams. way,. biographer.. their. A. the. works,. that?. upon. Shimizu's. INTERVIEWER:. your. this. Detective. recent. have. like the. Matsumoto. wife. by. violently. interesting. most. of your. in the. Chekbov. reason. of many. lots of ideas. Themes. forgettlng. Sister. received. some. also. contain. some. something. of the. comment. to. seem. with. your. I get. works for. and. feature. Many. does. meaning. Chekhov's. contact. women.. SHIMIZU: In. special. One. you. (Gakuya). passion. in. (1977), but. in. suiri shoJseisu) (1987), in which,. violent. Could. heavily. to. (Gikyoku. one. your. Kazuko.. Older. an. has. ite) (1978). Room. INTERVIEWER:. in. With. works,. One-ga. samishii. is referred. Surprisingly,. :. brings. of roles. my. Dressing. well.. I like such. ters.. yo--ni. Chekhov. notably. Story:. no. Among. mean.. directly.. most. INTERVIEWER: most. I. what. Rolf. men. adult an. in habits. infantile.

(9) Out. Naturally, three. they. 丘na11y, writing face.. wife's. love.. how. Tokyo. was. kind. a. about. a. thousand,. extremely. a. another to. shock. independence.. after. to. questions my. actual. no. under-. in. interest. an. about. 3000. was. I. encountered two. the. are. was. there as. pattern. before. later. out. learn. involved. comedy they. are,. asking'. Africa. drama,. the. that. of it being. have. that. bar,. It. essential. experiences. was. laughter･. with. the. there. If you. what. awareness. my. of the. Swahili. some. The. know. convulsed. same. words･. mailman.. don't. who. time. native. the. I found. understand･ a. a. on. much. of only. people. I'd. bar,. African. but. the. at. independence;. achieved an. was. studied. that. felt. It. when. was. the. quite right. essential in月･uenced. probably. work. is the. What. of the. cause. in The. amnesia. Sand. Youth,. of. QuicklyP SHIMIZU:. It's psychogenic.. in. hospital. Hamamatsu. time. I. from. psychogenic. was. to. as. assistant,. diagnosed. patients. they. that. reply. better.. I. was. diagnosing. while. l. diag･nosed. was. the. recognized struck. things, often. by. wife. what. a. interest. 1n. Other. criticized. words, for. the. other. in amnesia out. having. would day,. and. o'f basically too. many. people. there. ask so. they. they. must. psychiatry psychologlCal ontologlCal. lS,. side, like how. be With. concerns.. the. they'd. were,. gettlng. patients. disorders. psychologlCally. they. who. Was. how. the. suffering. doctor's. the. mental. during. know. not. a. of. him. interestlng. was. genre. peculiar. at. often. director. visited. did. who. What. the doctor. their. My. was. patients･. When. themselves･. themselves.. of such. out. he. I. five. or. people. disorder.. psychologlCal. I often. four. few. a. is the. who. Nagoya･. were. qulte. and. friend. a. to. way. There. play.. amnesla,. some. I have. the. on. the. writing. due. were, an. he. trip abroad,. my丘rst. I had. comlC,. Everyone. Those. ask.. wife,. w as. documenting. programs. teams]. less. or. was. in repartee. overlaylng. INTERVIEWER: How. vocabulary. are.. And. me.. in. exchanges,. they. who. his. his. There. I developed. Tanzania･. to. engaged. more. theme. in. l went. professional. nonsensical. been. his wife,. or丘ve. couple,. Tanzania. comedy. can. a. not. four. this. town. after. who. a. you. was. entertainer. had. was. she. and,. forgotten. of knowledge･. that. married. to. me. When. It has. Africa･. a. example,. kind. a. of times. being. small. reborn.. [standup. tO. as. about. it in books, had. him. for. story. about. before. woman. only. led. a. of entertainer. golng. for. 85. the. writing. While丘1ming. right. manzai. Japanese. one. in. [1964],. feel of Africa. the. was. to. that. months. Olympics. I followed. man,. the. Minoru. is.. one. experience. several. that. all.. returned. who. Another. One. told hundreds. that's. they. this wondering. it. Betsuyaku. and. documentaries,. told. was. Kunio. recoveries.. plays･. it; but. but. perfectly. l spent. he. When. fact;. the. stood. gradual. of it in my. accepted. of. Shimizu. television. When. hegradually revival. made. making. years,. Sixties,. of the. grew. For disturbed. a.

(10) 86. Robert. in my. characters. plays.. INTERVIEWER Youth,. How. What. :. Quickly-his. of. 丘eld of psychiatry. that. strikes. but. they. seem. always for. atrists. but. science, extreme. with. The of the. pitting. Japan. of. pitted. agalnSt. through. such. themes?. SHIMIZU:. For. theory,3). live;. to. place. kyo. the. its green,. is. employs. (the. place. for. a. Still, I think way. around, false･. the place. extraordinary,. for. In fact. the. jitsu and. as. ln. I often. as a. Sense,. years. bit. a. the. inside. One. frightenlng.. people.. other. hometown. don･t. move. is. about. the. same. It･s. much. by. fear,. as. is the. [the hometown]. a. place,. Sea, and. is besieged. it. so,. (kyo).. fantasies. many. people. [Shimizu. insidious. very. all. the. the. of the Japan. ago-the. with. "false". city. me. have. di氏cult. things. view. a. himaku. extremely. the. For. express. kyojitsu. very. is. we. to. which,. to. are. audiences. And. "natural". kyo.. coast. And. to your. an. the. country. country, a. along on. ichiguntachi). and. country.. (jitsu)and. Of that,. plays. no. ai. say. is. strongly.. little town. city. to. in. furusato. the. visit mine,. and. steadily. country. In splte. fifteen. or. living. as. your. Chikamatsu's. it is possible. way,. fooled･. the. city, which. is "real". the. different. a. (Ano. of. embracing. rather. a. example,. of. For. time. same. appears. men. calm. of people. in. real) is the. live.. to. as. that. is the. terms. or. country. the. at. ten. brewing. something. humans. true. in psychi-. trying. you. false) is the. or. jitsu (the. is easily. there. are. city in. and. way,. it. put. one. furusato･. faces. city. To. where. the. that. the. What. are. interested. am. of Love Jealousy. Troop 1982,. so. I. stressed. For. are. interest;. group. home. furusato (hometown). empty. the. of. country.. the. a. There some. of doctors. have. return. In. anOther･. the. while. in. Lost.. country. English]. the. Be. me. between. contrast. to. One. clearly. the. Those. Fated. the. against. in. appears. Lovers. (1980) and. clty. a. of. notion. that. I may. dark.. it'stbe. with. so,. image. an. of. them. to. And. is rather. them. of. turn. Sand. doctorsperse,. in the. much. I do. have. People. Consequently,. contradictions･. Sea. still very. The. chairs?. than. rather. in. physician. smashing. insubstantial･. reason･. INTERVIEWER: a. as. the. of. but. so,. late, and. and. image. my. suddenly. say. me. of. vague. di庁erent. a. for to. me. it, especially. on. portrayal. penchant. It's rude. books. the. about. SHIMIZU:. many. Rolf. of soil. insanlty. Tbe. bome亡own itself･. reveals Sister lives. is like. Solitary. As as. actors. abuse. and. there. is always. associate. That. in. violence. most. a. As. a. a. barber. strongly. figures. Flame･. to their. barber shop with. the. It is about. return. shop on. the. the. on. stage. revolving. construct. Tokyo, in. a. most a. married. In my. outskirts･. hometown,. prominently. hometow･n. there･. and. human. which. couple. in the image The the. in With who. provinces of asmall. barber barber. slowly. madness. shop. Older. an. tire. of. their. and. run. into. country. is the. s_hop mirror. town. l. place leads. to.

(11) Out. a. "miracle. that. itself.. in the. appears rent. In. most. of. pattern. then. [employs. system". reveals. always. Sixties,. of the. undiluted,. back. go皿g. It may. Sister. As. hometown. to. the Tokyo. after. a. question. Minoru. be the. Solitary. form.. straightforward. tO. returnlng･. Older. an. Betsuyaku. and. English].. the. With. Kunio. Shimizu. taking. a. madness. As. be. a. inevitable. recur-. nostalgia,. psychologlCal. considerable. all. this construct to. seems. initial. us. within. Flame. a. There. the. with. 87. pom-. melling.. INTERVIEWER: a. To. in such. theme. Land. (Kyo-jim. itoshi. no. b虎tare. You've. the. about SHIMIZU. Doing. a. look. we. watch. deep. it is risky. is there. Pure. the. Beggar. Quickly,. (Itoshi. Those. and. in the. you. anything. could. the. and. takes. actually. leavlng. a□d low-speed. photography;. that. by. minutes,. high-. with. high-speed. with. plays,. sense. vitb. insanity to. much to. offer. they. so,. shutter. with days. three. for. open. with l have. write. of. My. ユlour. an. SHIMIZU: of. late.. some. Let's. with. interest. in. earlier the. works. Bedraggled obi-mo. of your. the. murder, older. I don't. cut.. contain. Die. with in the. f･eel I have. contact very. wanted Of. course. how. with. not human. humanity. scenes. violence,. of violence?. Mormng. any. that. coursefeel have. would. written. much. no亡so. and. of it, Iof. more. absurdist. photography･. i always. many. than. rather. works. To. as. such. plays. of. been. with. plays. an. good undue. violence. To. INTERVIEWER: Dear. death, to. endings. feel your. you. say. Still, in regard. of my. plays. Do. realize. throughmy. struck-. is of their. of them. althoughI. patients.. mental. Ⅰ'm always. patients;. impression. strongest. lives of the. the. mental. itself.. there. was. human. low-speed that. getting. and. language. and. reveal. we're. witnesslng. angle,. but I think. odd,. slowly. psychology. the. INTERVIEWER:. and. was. the. high-speed. seem. might. that-about. about. criticisms. are.. seen. between. resemblance. I. different. a. if. as. hospital,. mental. feeling. the. it from. it's. motion,. the. I had. approach. insanity. slow. l visited. them,. a. in. event. of Beckett,. those. example. association. to. talking. I. The. sports. When. To. say. a. man.. high-speed. to. for. or. patients,. psychology. of. part. life. Into. the. among. mo. How. familiar. Of aflower. in three. in. Bedraggled. but. I became. blooming. Born. Be. aS. appears. works?. acquainted. the. Dear. already,. in your. Will. Youth,. 1t. speci丘cally,. frame. When. a. is. happen. to. made. Dear,. of. deal. good. documentaries,. photography. be. can. Sand. plays. Everyone. photography. low-speed. The. a. said. insanlty. role :. the Madman. a-jo--otogu) (1969),. kojiki) (1971),. insanity. about. Even. as. of yours. naomote. Troop of Love. add. plays. ask. nat. major. Beggar, hyo-lan thematic. judge Iceberg. from with. yo) (1976), and areas. involves. I'll Put neither The the. Flowers Flower. Sand loss. of of. There Piece. Youth, youth,. Tomorrow, nor. How growlng. Obi. Dear,. (Hanakazari-. Quickly, Old,. another friction.

(12) Rolf. Robert. 88. between. SHIMIZU: 20 and a. As. 40.. certain. is. one. hero;. feeling. When. l arrived. knew. it l was. l. when. the. the. hero.. concerned. in. are. when. one. their. I. it. mean,. the. on. lead.. the. play. hot. until. theauthor. play. youth.. it is being. that. of youth. a. gladly. of. conscious. between. life-up. real. writing. would. phenomena?. somewhere. anything-even Even. such. with line. invisible. an. it,. young say. longer. his. youth,. being. Was. INTERVIEWER:. I. outside. to. found. in my. myself. it somewhere. works. around. that. That's. word. of youth. felt the. you. youth. I realized. when. aware. powerfully forty. the. l. biogra-. a. him.. with. Ⅰ丘nd. Old.. appear. before. that. his biographer,. identi丘ed. growlng. Old began. discovered. into. longer. no. young,. line and. I. changed. life.. growing. invisible. however,. I had. about. but. that. hero;. the. by. line,. invisible. that. at. struck. crossed. doing. wanted. someone. writing. was. is. nothing?. embarrassing,. rather l had. because. no. writer. phical. as. be. to. or. plays,. if everyone. but didn't. inside. begin. it, there. oneself. think,. Sartre,. but. sees. the. I don't. wasn't. doing. one. age. did you. I perceive. Whether. with. Not,. When. generations.. invisible. line?. V.. SHIMIZU:. No,. Political. Stance. 1n. In the. INTERVIEWER: Kunio. struggles. discern. to. SHIMIZU. I don't. :. follower,. a. was. comment. have. swept. rajikaru (nonsectarian tion in the student in. a. art. stage. Sunagawa most. of my. Anpo. struggles.. The. same. pany,. had. which been. States. was. Iwanami. one. jailed during. joined their. union,. the. not. the new. more. war. to. a氏1iated 1 said. and is. a. employee. in. Treaty. unable I. seen.. publishers;. one. any. particular. organiza-. was. studying Junior. a. of their. took. thencame. 1960. Films. that. lwanami. Com-. Publishing of. of speech. soldiers;. the. in. effect. president. foot. The. [April 1956]. And. lwanami. art. stage year.. student. entered. of freedom. his defense. student. nonsekuto-. my. the. a. as. soICalled. (Anpo). of. subsidiary. a. them.. with. immediately. became. I. i became. along. radical for. with. plays. when. Security. times,. before,. write. I tagged. Films. the. of. as. in. me?. spirit of the. on. college. have. be speci丘c,. was. Mutual. from. I graduated. so. i. been. To. the. going. in that,. was. [March].. year. was. I have. political position.. began. and. "participated. reads. yours. for. Shimizu. of. of. Rather,. group. Japan-United. [June 19].. I. radical).. struggle4). class. by. the. 1960. World. plays. that. along. The. However,. union.". from. clear. movement.. study. Base. a. for. entry. labor. stance on. the. thirty.. life in. of your. lwanami. political. little past. a. chronology. the. with. could. Was. 1t. sekai) (1982),. no. de丘nite. any. if you. wonder. I. Kunio. (Shimizu AnPo. the. Case,. my. lwanami When the. one. com-. ;.

(13) Out. to. considered. going. with,. there. those. external. to. understand. I don't. profess. of powerlessness.. were. at. the My. arrested.. the. parents. have. I. they. 89. To. job.. the. of. have. begin. as. a. the. at. things,. about. all had. looking. which. in. a. back feel. me. made. l. were. involved. was. with. though. extreme. son,. policeman's. Everyone. time,. an. demonstrations. street. i studied. students. to. clear. faced!. the. heartbroken.. The. so. but I experienced. frightenlng. been. seemed. wasn't. Minoru. part. struggles,. how. that. I might. would. least. doubts.. my. to. demonstrations.. loglC-at. political. demonstrations. the Anpo. what. and. street. student. have. time. Betsuyaku. and. circumstances.. Add. sense. Kunio. Anpo. the. pany. were. Shimizu. Sixties,. the. of. clear. l. now. somehow. inferior. Plays. lies beyond. what. l did. to. want. earlier. was. were. were. a. I would. work. of the clear. that's. say. clarity. isn't such. clarity.. Superjiciality. did. in. the. I. never. but. marvelous,. involve. to. said. stance. political. while. the other's. we. was. queue. with. the If. work.. felt that. political. To. SHIMIZU: heels. But. of the. To. of that. SHIMIZU:. the. students. have. It. an. cut. the. reflect. before. Anpo.. the. came. struggles. SHIMIZU:. :. play. 1973P. forms of the. Tbat's. many.. You. (Nakanai. go. one. the. on. in. Morning. the. reflect. the. Incredibly. no. one. ka?. express day. I'd go. Sunagawa,. to. As. although. and. to. I'd go,. so. plays･ man. of the. anything. a. class too,. no. absolutely. whereas may. the night. spending. l had. half. and. that. result,. woman. sort;. intention. struggles.. interpret. have. one. the. wall,. interesting,. extremely to. to. write. with. Sunagawa. or. seem. to. l could. that. so. Anpo. Yes,. INTERVIEWER:. Die. in which. classes. in front. the. that. To. attempt. atmosphere. go. mornlng. INTERVIEWER. for. Mornmg. the years. Sunagawa. does. conscious. itself in many. of symbolizing. on. a. not. i wouldn't. for. put. two. written. and. extent. what. have. would. expressed. waltlng. Anpo. in. period? was. it in. write. day. another. was. Die. other.. desperation. I did. It. the. actually. INTERVIEWER:. but. day?. To. did. extent. what. of that. of students. concerns. weep. there. there When. with. So,. them･. I lacked where. deal. also. everything. to. bit inferior. a. territory. is no. should. arranged. demonstrations, out. art. who. felt. destruction. although. INTERVIEWER:. who. I also. stake. the. political. l felt that. political interpretation.. given. of order,. but. colleagues. street. to. u,ith Sincerity,. destruction. it. in the. l ought. my. loglC;. to. participate. works. Overjlowing. it really. I resisted. according. I decided. of purpose. My. loglC.. tidiness. extreme. loglCality,. some. possess. should. it that. because. of the. many. people. way.. many.. with. the. nakanai. no. intriguing ka?. 1973-nen. title no. Not. Weepy. Not. tame-nip) (1973)･.

(14) Robert. 90. Why. 1973. was. SHIMIZU:. one. generally. the. people. own. who. sometimes. talked. the. to. seemed stopped. in to. comlng. in. 1971. stopped. passersby. the. reached Art. Theater.. thus. l gave. title from. into. in, the. got. INTERVIEWER: In 1970 some. people, 且ower. the. awfully. Not. The. Shinjuku. young. plays,. and. the. amatetlr. the. street･. decline,. more. the I. factor,. concrete. the. at. plays. farewell. it. passersby. all that,. to. and. area. merely. lines. such. The. play. Theater?. it. place,. was. with trylng. all. humorous. that. the. youth. lines･. ln. be. to. seemed. most. the. around. thought. waiting. Art. Shinjuku. Superjiciality Overj7owing. people. Station. of Shinjuku. in front. the. with. years. that.. after. now. the. passlng. the. hub. the. te′emlng. was. young. With. their. enJOylng. Innocently. of. version. of. You and. rather. in your. youth. culture,. at. much. insistent. that. approach 〟intolerable〃 least. the. was. youth. of anything. you. basically. a. in. intolerable. for. about. it safe. to. lamentation. the. be. the. fundamentally. are. Is. culture. to. going. of powerlessness,. accepting. art.. your. are. feelings. calmly. I wrote. to. like things my. re鮎cts. audiences. think. are. "Looks. as. gulSe. two. apolisay. that. for the. that you. had. with?. SHIMIZU: enhance. I don't. 〟tranquillity〃. this. Of. identi丘ed. :. personally. your丘nding. oil complacent. time.. INTERVIEWER tical, both. on.". prospect. of. had. Weep?. from. quiet. tranquillity. to. For. Everyone. about. years. our. power.. SHIMIZU:. faced. was. l. and. in dangerous. complete. any. my. of the. 1970.. theater.. thinner,. sni氏ng. was. line of young. the. do. their. between. more. to. of. poem･5). to. play. area. 1973P. heyday. 1967-68. line upon. way. for. the. was. one. and,. impossible. tile Ginsberg. about. was. their. culture.. Weep. a. of. six in. off from. cut. many. vision. however,. entered. plays,. be. it would Not. became. movement. into. or. distinction. clear. SOmething. Ninagawa. put. Gradually,. theater. student. be. to. ask. A. a. lnVOlved. 丘ve. Shinjuku,. and. as. really. tbose. and. plays.. the. the. that. From. there. they. when. our. When. :. shove. into. in to get. INTERVIEWER:. to. productions.. Weep?. it the. Sincerity,. the. comlng. Not. sHIMIZU. to. street. lS. play. frustration･. Were. During. A. them. regarded their. in. space. audiences. young. We. Way,. the. 1972. conclusion. a. work.. and. and. 1n. same. tbem･. see. the. for. outlet. o庁. get. to. then. in. developed. professional Then,. life. some. add. thrilling. come. would. passersby. an. in the. years. came. plays. how,. about. time,. same. the. six. in fact. but. as. or. or. people. in. participated strし唱gles,. b叫at. young. intuitively,. writes. you?. for丘ve. plays. many. and. for. year. my. political. have. and. sad. I did. Theater,. the Art. a. such. Rolf. Not the. motifs. Rather,. really. of. my. works. I felt mlSglVlngS by. drawing. upon. about the. no. period. longer for. being. able. motifs.. As.

(15) Out. for. 1960s. the less. or. VI.. Historical. INTERVIEWER: to. Madness-Our. SHIMIZU much,. tales. My. I'm. and. remains,. more. Heike,. By. kokoro-mo. is. what. Illusion. mls. (Waga. it you. Heart. kuruoshi. sozoro. Water. Sparkling. the. works,. as. such. Culture. Traditional. of. historical. your. of the. Spirit Is. I wanted. and. take. bard. a. betw.een. no. want. Pushed. to. Masa-. warera. tamashii. kagayaku. wa. The. composition,. in the. was. capital,. stimulated. by. reference.. I also. gorilla, mountains. and. Genji. relied. on. went. We. critics don't. Africa･. to. the. places. and. people.. between. people. and. places,. modern. plays or. shop. changed the. take. even. by. forest. is. a. bulletin), a theater. (In'ei raisan) (1934). Japanese today? SHIMIZU: essays,. probably. I have. What. quoting. frankly. man. and. about. toilet.. Ⅰ'm often is in. lntereSt. the. this. from. the. by. that･ relation. encounter. Some. places･. l used. why. asked fact. the. the. process. is the. stress. between. encounter. of from. history. l. for. read. avoid. point. plays. I used. down. to. the. transformed. my. in the. "Fragments. essay no. you. on. dansho-"), serialized quote. relevance. spoken. able. plays. and. that. Tales. was. of. a. people. the. Heike. circumstance.. tsuite. quarterly,. been. l. play. that. come. greatly. public. interest. In your. butat-ni. a. but. slgni丘cant :. ("`Ie'to. in. to. have. my. the. Heil(e. the. and. seen. able. between. impressive･. was. forests. I had. historical. are. people. place. in. l write. how. My. places.. INTERVIEWER Stage,". When. tailor shop,. a. about. it, but. upon. writing. were. might. something. remark. was. of what. they. relationship. battles. forests. on. Tennessee researching. Mountains. book. If the gorilla. plain,. learn. between. barber. nlemOries. to. can. forelgn. a. reading,. to. in the. Kiso. I. manage,. While. the sites of ancient and. very. wanted to. similarity. excitement. new. time. the. simply. defeated.. the. Of the. Out. At. my. a. I. a. of the sprlngS. comlng. exciting. was. in. see. to. it di血cult. plays,. l. l visited. the topography. I. adapt. of extinction. The. also. what. I. when. When. the. with. historical. lay. (Heike monogatari). I found. plays.. I found. Water,. Heike. the. of. of ruin-here. interest. nature.. Genji,. the. Interested. in. my. words,. and. and. for. process. Sparkling. the. history. Heike. the. Tales. material. as. being. at. In other. it. use. than. look. Spirit Is. of all, I like the. to. Rather. Williams.. and. to. (Maboroshi-ni. First. :. however.. are. remains. what. 91. nari) (1980)?. mizu. the. is lost,. Minoru. Betsuyaku. and. ; Importance. turn. Masakado. kado) (1975) and. My. Plays. To. throughyour. say. Kunio. that.. with. Shimizu's. Shimizu. is lost. what. culture,. satis丘ed. Sixties,. of the. a. of. Tanizaki;. Tanizaki do. "room. but. you. the. Japanese. in Engeki. House. Ts虎shin. Jun'ichir6's In Praise feel. Tanizaki's. used". old. Japanese. houses,. (Theatrical of. aesthetics. (tsukawarezaru. not. the. and. heya). particularly. Shadows has. for. in. my. farm.

(16) Robert. 92. houses, the. hotlSe,. the. kyakuma.. at. a. but. white. for. Times the. have. lights.. Just. going. staircase. is becomlng. in. us. so. an. many. extravagance,. Such. ways.. For We've in. Even. accounts. had. in. various. in. sense. Tadashi's had. of. new a. the. periment. Suzuki. you,. allude?. the. not. forms,. kyakuma,. the. used," incur. a. loses. a. but. gradual a. that,. space. stimulates. and. indispensa-. their. and. reconsidera-. major. How. far. is your. drama. of. of the. no-. form, dead. because. I'm. are. notions. forms,. theatrical. rather. that. integrated. done. no-. me. due. the. it. than way. interesting. an. it. Suzuki. at. more. to. what. experi-. the ex-. with.. from. plays. has. moved. absolutely. which. being. now. school. by. Shin-. skilfully.. that. 1t. yohaku･. dramaturgy,. genre. Kanze. Japanese. or. space,. more. is. impressed. was. aesthetic. traditional. see. I. such. Space. Village, was. in. a. Western. no. the. saw. that. alive.. Japanese. is still. in Toga. I know. of. appearance. gradually. of. of. from. become.. there. building. what. terms. have. exploited. gleaned. Ifirst. things. were. yohaku. but. but. in. electric. space-yohaku. use. good. it has. When. begun :･. i. without. shadows. idea. the. blank. the. make. was. what. came. had. SHIMIZU: least. for. yohaku,. to. wishes. theater;. INTERVIEWER to. to. me. of. matter. in what. yohaku.. no-. shadows,. a. one. steep-roofed. in. led. bright.. houses. the shadows. spaces,. have. ability. origin. extent. with. ever. its. to some. mented. the. the. drama,. Japanese. indeed. geki. it is. lost. gradually. extravagant. become. upstairs･. we. dark. those. of. ghosts. house. Japanese. the. as. kind. a. be. not. I believe. It's. house.. [Japanese]. us. might. the. possesses. imagination,. Japanese. of the. imagination,. and. There. "room. slanting. room.. that's. have. completely. disappear皿g.. and. the. Japanese. light. are. imagination.. houses. But. place.. Likewise,. staircase.. in emotion. bility to the Japanese tion. thrilling. to. is usually There. the. space. a. always. frightening.. was. It's. stimulating. was. faint. passing. merely. Japanese. now. be. kept. place. there. is kept.. might. seek.. time. in Japan. eXtraVaganCe. seemlngly. while. the. there. and. same. changed;. very. Or,. a. in. not. to be. as. used. In old houses. in. room. place,. those. be. is discommodious. hide. the. at. upstairs. even. an. loss,. various. but. a. disease.. best. similar. even. may. frightened. play. or. bit important,. a. 1t. what. are. staircase. was. bright,. gotten. to. them. the. cases,. contaglOuS. Children. hearth. the but. frightening.. gradually. days. old. close. where. and. evil, fearful. too. extreme a. by. It's the. guests.. receive. put. not. space. shoji.. room. necessary. The. a. to. are. guests. more. it is dark. the. In. (parlor). with. used,". gilt screens;. best. In. member. not. across. close. distance.. "room. the. really. family. a. kyakuma. a. It is for people. polite. isolate a. have. always. Rolf. the. larger. drawn. Japanese. But. often. theirs. such. is to. more. and. I'm. not. as. importance. of great. obviously. the. no-. to. which. theatrical. tradition?. in且uenced. by. rigid. than. think. of at. ours.. various. them,. Rather, times. you. at. it's for.

(17) Out. own. my. of the. Sixties,. This. is not. works.. VII.. dead. of the. narrations. a. what. Ⅰ丘nd. and. shingeki. it. playⅥ･igbts. me. one. when. asked. term. the. about. I don't. word.. Simply,. do. Noda. Hideki. to. pay. of the. content. shingekiP. much. about. to. attention. it, I'm. struck. about. the. a. is. Eriko. you. the. playwTights very. writer. a. my. of. is. what. once. by. again. one. me. strikes. as. an. all be. somewhat And,. from. ours,. different of. outgrowth. a. change. write･. we. when. that. not. the. of. may. of. from?. come. emblematic. another. is. generation. development. will. generation. to. resemblance. K6hei's. ask. think. you. playwrights. Tsuka. Watanabe. Ⅰ'd like. Where. bear. we. says,. Even. either.. feelings. your. cryptic. The. but. types,. whatever. to. To. occurred.. different. a. the. Theater. Finally,. SHIMIZU: that. about.. it's. 93. it is.. term. INTERVIEWER:. has. think. are. isn't･. what. peculiar. Japanese. I often. MiⅢoru. form;. their. of. What. SHIMIZU:. Betsuyaku. and. matter. Japanese. INTERVIEWER:. Kunio. a. that. Contemporary. Shimizu. generation. similar. the. selection. ours.. Hideki's. Noda. for. committee. all the. I must. one. will be. latch. can. in且uential. I think. bound Godot. waiting. for. dynamic. in the. kinds. of. many. is. more. one one. a. we. I regard. play. di庁erent. sad from. many. need. to. we. can. only. we. plays. have. can. him. I think. of drama. there. and. are. are. he. that. after. Only,. having. there. Still, I foresee. world･. I hope. I hope. ours･. but. come. him. made. which maze,. patterns. word･. imaglne. a. Noda. works.. pattern.. "dynamic,". as. many. dramatic. dramatic. of the. sense. usual. a. on. drama,. who. such. upon. emerging. read. Noda's.. of. am. into. one. playwrights. expand. pattern;. to. his. lead. hold. get. young. new. It's rather. plays.. fundamentally. are. to. the. that. be. this may. when. su庁ers. that. and. can't. have. penetrate may. writers I. onto.. not. i. different.. I often. and. I could. Other. fine works. many. produce. Prize. confess. intriguing.. more. clues. Kisbida. the. in 1983.. won. fundamentally. seem. works. will. drama. Beckett's that. plays. are. goonhavingboth like Noda's. that. dynamic. plays. in. Ways.. NOTES 1). For. an. to. :. 2,. (December 1986) : Kunio (66-67).. 33. Kenneth. Contemporary. the. Minoru Shimizu. 2). introduction. Bonnie. Betsko. Clubb. et. Marranca and. Rachael. career. of. Betsuyaku. Playwright," 53-84,. which. al.,. American. Dreams:. (New. York:. Performing. Koenig,. eds.,. M血oru,. Journal also. Interviews. of. carries The Arts. with. the a. Yokohama brief. "Betsuyaku. Rolf,. Robert. see. University. National. description. of the. work. Shepard,. Imagination of Sam Journal Publications, 1981) Contemporary. Women. ;. of. ed･ Kathleen. Playwrights.

(18) Robert. 94. York:. (New Theatre. Japan,. Nakamura. 1976),. Y缶seid6,. Sunagawa. and. protesters. Journals,. 5). berg. no. pp.. Monzaemon,s. in. student. BegirLnln卵aS. Ball. in. base. military. by. translation. BETStJYAKU but. stage. (Jiyii butai). The. to. a. and. classmates. formed. no. one. a. to. I thought The. socialist. l would. try. 1960 s-the offer.. directors. so. were. and. talked. was. no. police. rather. than. clearcut. reason. I joined both. thriving. known. troupe. a. ;. the Free. the. as. livelier;. were. activities. they. of. made. if l could. the. early. write. then. and. of. the. Beckett's. in. that. 1962,. there. was. Godot. for. Waiting. was. former. my. Waseda. happened. so. that. in production. the time from. of. stimulus. for. extremely. political. a. me.. [1aughs] me. to that. wonder. plays. We good. Was. polnt. we. whether. couldn't. Reading. workings.. 1960s-didn't. liveliest art.. mostly. Also,. inner. man's. just. try.. done. been. which. and. a. around. bad. About. problem. contemporary. involved. was. graduated It. the. and. affairs. I. at丘rst. Stage. like that.. that. of. playwriting･. name.. it. tackling. seriously. not. realism,. socialist. mostly. state so,. not. same. time. write. plays. Movies. between. playwright,. was. theater,. general. And. I gave. the丘rst. s. 1955-56. supporters). There. Stage. quite. of Free. plays,. lg50. Free. but. me･. of the. late. a. theatrical. a. political. the. troupe. depiction. we. did. director,. situations,. wrltlⅢg. in. Productions. myself.. the. members. realism. more. with. to. theater. and. literature,. stage. l could. its dramatic. plays. to. for. membrane. you?. certain. about. fellow. write. even. days. attracted. a. new. translated. was. in. as. the. projects. to. That. and. we. really. Group. statement. work. have. it happened,. themselves. make. in. lies. art. Y缶･. become. to. University,. in those. social problems. work. As. bigger. troupes. restricting. not. Research. undertaking. (New. MINORU. you. what. Waseda. Literature. how. Ⅰ'm. :. Modern. were. or. l entered. when. led. What. businessman. or. ConYork:. the exagainst Tachikawa City･ section of the Shimizu Gins1977)･ read. Press,. Suwa. Relationship. Playwright;. INTERVIEWER: novelist. Sword. jitsu (substance, truth)･ See kyojitsu himaku of the theory), Solsho Shiry6 Bungaku (Tokyo:. Sunagawa. the. Grove. (NewYork:. Japanese. a. that. confrontations labor union. and. BETSUYAKU I.. and. Hideo,". the. Nihon. bloody. Sometimes. :. American Cordon. ed.. Kanze. Mask. notion. "Chikamatsu,". (local citizens,. lines in the. Concerned. Interview,". with. 64-74.. incident. of the. pansion. Rimer,. I. Thomas. (void, untruth) and (A reexamination saikento-. Yukihiko,. The. lnterview. kyo. the. himaku-ron. An. 1980).. Chikamatsu. between. Kyojitsu. 4). 1(4). An. Koreya:. Business:. 5-17;. :. ; "Senda. 1987). "Noh. Press,. himahu:. (himaku). Books,. 47-79;. 1(2) Japan,. University. Kyojitsu. by. Tree :. Theatre. cerned Columbia. 3). Beech. Rolf. like his･. Beckett,. Students. feel that. fiction. or. all sort. of. dreamed. movies. we. had. of my poetry. produce I decided day, had. of being seen.. After. the. much movie the.

(19) Out. of Beckett. appearance to. idea. the. get. Plays. prior he. what. we. that. earnestly. to. there. was. l began. have. must. been. INTERVIEWER of. your. do. you. Do. attend. Do. Yes,. And,. though. dress. rehearsals,. whose. rehearsals. to. you. I. l seldom. to. to. hard. I realized. inner. an. of. to the. reality ;. production. For. production?. day. theむst day. theむst. example,. rehearsals. of. readings.. of rehearsals. in all of these.. dress. until. 1950s. relationship. attend. I go. participate. visit. express. rehearsals?. fail. troupe,. I generally. too.. your. in their. see. never. the. upon. to. go. to. say. is always. the. more. movies. can. drama.. hand. a. ln. One. which. in. express. about. you. take. I do.. it depends. into. me. ask. usually. readings?. to. possible. led. what. you. BETSUYAKU:. was. Ⅰ'd like. :. plays.. it. lonesco. and. doing. it difncult. state,. began. we. absurd,. Artless.. I felt. inner. man's. Beckett. reading. but. 95. were. structurally.. plays,. matters,. that. way,. another. that. and. in such. the. of. they. what. simplistic. say. complicated. After. convey.. to. theater. stage. Minoru. Betsuyaku. and. so-called. the. on. rather. wants. Kunio. the. do. could. were. slightlyconvoluted,. Shimizu. lonesco,. and. that. to. Sixties,. of the. There. start,. and. troupes. are. l visit. those. and. often. INTERVIEWER: but. works,. It is do. what. BETSUYAKU: of the my. I don't. the. director, images lost,. so. space. to. the. of. The. of enriching. drama.. Such. myself. compelled. I'd achieved. in. printed. that. images. in. That's. what. I'd fail the. as. I'd. words. tended. to. to. written. happen. to. try. in my. with. me,. When. to. the. separately. much. force. the. constitute. and. author to. conform. likely. would. to. conformity fetter. not. off. words; likewise,. both. as. and. recreated. actors,. Ⅰ'd sti鮎and better. be. to. am. language･. through. play. that. l. composition. direction. my. I'd try. I'm. once.. it. one. just. work･ so. least in. I want. at. make. Inevitably. At. it with. functioning. And. portion.. stage･. that. and. arrived. when. interior. complete. but creates. w.riter. entities. director･. a. and. process,. However,. Ⅰ'd血d. the. text,. the. tO. through. w()rld. throughimages,. another. their. the. just. to. a a. total. own. of that?. access. galnS. of the. limited. as. all in. stage･. bodies.. image. complete. of. it changes. creates. his. been. has. failing. up. much. through. means. loses. process. their. disadvantages. and One. myself.. direct. to. playwrights. advantages. once. the textむst. director. the. best. how. care. another. the. directing. my. I regard. in. again. in. I feel l end. language.. then. but. so. directing,. the. are. Ⅰ've directed. actors,. case.. think. you. for. uncommon. not. be the. actors･. the. trying. the. be. tO. a. director-playwright. Another play. to. wrltlng. might. easily. SpeCほc. doesn't. one. when the. completion,. director, not. thing,. author try. detailed. to. is get. stage. form. the. habit. self-complace叫 by. without. instructions,. when. and. writing. of bringlng. everything. perhaps･. He. also he might. the. written. doubling sbould･ let. as. By things.

(20) Robert. 96. leave. slide,. he. that. spots. I write for. a. time. to. lS. like. better. the All. that. work. familiar. in. on. do. In. stage.. from. That's. my. the. experience image. it. on. I had The. stage･. for. date,. to. room. rehearsal. l realize. when. the. seelng. diction･. as. away. between. when. I will. director break. not. to. admit. for. theむst has. success. when. a. writing. differ-. the. greater. it is. to. of how. to. become. possessed. by. advantage. anxiety. it's golng I invariably. time;. one. only. after. our. amount. know. I don't. time.. director. a. with. tremendous. a. theむst. I think. at least tw･ice. one. stay. to. thought. much. glVlng. areas. such. rehearsals･､. of difference. a. with. with. director,. the. notwithstanding,. him. with. even. without. production.. I generally. go.. director,. I received. the. working. when. write. dress. degree. image. the. and. ence,. to. go. the. with. varied play. then play. and. it to. glVe. my. direction,. as. play,. while, what. handle. can. a. the. to. things. Rolf. thoroughly. another.. INTERVIEWER:. Can. see. you. advantages. any. the. author. director? BETSUYAKU:. When. This. may. the. in. result. a. occasions. ⅠⅠ. Social. lssues:. how do. Syndrome. Criminal. you. astutely sense. you. one. of. Locally. munlty systems】. educational It is not. young.. Japan call. the it. a. laws,. natural relations. Japan. too. entered. To. maintains. are. in the. lS. some. modern. way age. more. doubt. both. at. and. a. play.. no. side,. on sea,. can. To. involving. Carried brought ; postwar. weak,. too.. by. into. of. between by. morals. So,. following. being.. urbanization. All. of thefamily. the or. of the the. and. com-. educational. elderly ideology･. the. and And. in. is some㌢thing-. there assorted. of that brought. ln,. resources,. is carried. education. family?. disintegration. live. sorts. replaced. out,. the. of issue,. social. question. to. communities. aware. Japanese. a. essays. of. very. one. of. speak. it is. whether. which,. me. made. contemporary. relations. be. collection. your. reading. the. Education. and. (1981) has. and. domestic. rearing. and. form. is extremely. element. Family. everything-all. that. something. infant. another. me,. call it custom-within. code,. one. all questions. problems,. religious. fathom. society.. people. various. and. monitors. negative. of the. itself, and. space. the. shindor6mu). are. images. respective. On. plays. education. they. education,. communlty.. your. indeed.. there's. ine位cient.. contemporary. I do. different. are. of the. Contemporary. (Hanzai. observe. BETSUYAKU: or. in the. crisis involving. a. to. unable. Seeing. :. development. extremely. Crises. INTERVIEWER The. are. become. would. their. of. universality.. they. when. operation. intermesh. complex. more. director. and. playwright. the. dramatic. more. universality, those. from. arlSlng. complexity. the. out,. more. and. deteriorated all the. more. or. less. family when deteri-.

(21) Out. I feel the. oration. we of. are. Call no. that. kind. a. there. are. kind. renewal. problems. dilemmas. your. Bloom that. view. Still, what. lem. in. our. the. that. a. charm;. diverse,. stage,. They. a. the. Everyone. I don't. completely mother. a. true. anything recognized. in. the. play. good. appreciate. the. play. communlty･. the education. and the. preschool. probBut,. I. education. children high. of the of the. an. is in. the. in. a. so. mechanical. boy sort. the. at. would. his environment.. by holds. the. notion. and. It that. way,. that's. boys. at. the. and. the child. their. children･. good. universlty･. the. when. to. them. problems. stage.. if the runs. an. civil servant･. wanting a. to must. in Bloom･. in Cherry. grandmother. happen,. there. The. a. with. enter. preschool. kills his. who. do. to. can. education,. begin. becomes. simplistic. they. child is. itself diversi丘ed･. what. uniform,. school. to. of. each. of. diversity. this. of. child. These. individuality. anotber's. studious. education,. when. crushed-but. turn. but. the children･. individuality. expansion. at. good. sticky血gers. among. the. one. only. of preschool. system. been Of. image. an. the. In. needs･. children with. diversity and. that. without. it has. by. have. becomes. individual. their. children. such. sports;. to. at丘ghting,. runners,. recognltlOn. up. simplistic,. why. only. superstructure. public. is. same. think. do. inscrutable･. from. comes. according. it may. up. their. That's. The. educational. thoughI of. complicated. nurtured. mutual. takes. same. gets. appear.. our. your. because. endorsed. were. are. parents. into. were. growing. all approach. get. in. affairs. of. education?. that ensured. a. 丘ght. to. Otherwise,. which. thinking. am. of. problem. fast. sometimes. system. likes. of. of. chaos. remote. in the cities. within. stage. it complicated,. raised. study,. elements. ensurlng. educational. one. are. these. course. preschool. who. at. good. manifold. environment. circles. breakdown. the. of others,. children. environment. furthered-of. I. education,. question. makes. variety. be. when an. was. that. number. would. Children. there. speci丘c. Children. there. slnglng,. with. the. communlty. past. but. system.. childcare. In. the. seems. still. a. at. arrive. from. of the. large. a. feeling. a. some. com-. communality･. areas,. (1980) in particular,. saku). arise. Well,. :. encompasses. have. to. solution,. about. problems. think. you. BETSUYAKU. I ask. hana. (Ki-ni all such. do. we. some. new. possibility. period. living. people. of. in rural. lead. might. Unless. 丘nd. When. INTERVIEWER: in. The. a. entered. communities,. new. achieved. that. have. disappear.. not. will. soon. will develop.. life's. of. of. be. of everything･ to. seem. of community,. confusion･. principles. non-ideologlCal. all. cherry. can. of communality. of community. which. is such. there. why. sense. formation. cause. we. period;. of the a. is the. 97. Minoru. Betsuyaku. and. community. transition. a. it, perhaps,. doubt. Kunio. Shimizu. of the. in. a. reorganization,. Tbat's. a. decay now. right. munally.. Sixties,. of the. totality. of the. extremes,. be. raised. were. but. child. that. the way. grandas. a.

(22) 98. Rober亡Rolf. kind. of traditional. must. be. strong,. that,. as. is, these. incorporated. was. a. no. good. good. the. mechanism. the. testing. system. extremely. slngle. she be. told. communality. that. discredited. mechanism. might. of. a. as. education in. tested. mere. prlnCiple,. it to. show. be. genuinely. indeed. were. is. cannot. method. if it. again, being. than. rather. her. they. di氏culty. were. system. educational. Then. quashed.. of communality, the. might. them;. The elements. educational. be. beat. anything.. unadorned. If the grandmother's. it would. through. overcome. and. simple,. let anyone. mustn't. be. a. superb. of education. This. ous. intermediary-this. educational. Suddenly. is of that. variety-are are. and. The. So,. Yacht. something. that. have. something,. but. yacht. avoided New■. their. ideologleS. the. individual. and. the. theaters. merely. they culture. the. them. should. social. incorporation. in Tokyo-a. go. the. not. be. extremes. be. could. use. they. maturation, the. the. the. make. whole. social. existence. of the. is. nation,. it. the. not. And. of regeneration?. an. as. disappearance. the. with. in need. most. "villages" in the. for. organ. for. are. a. somewhat. put. down. Shimo-Kitazawa. in the. Tokyo. form. of villages,. example,. centered. Kinokuniya. these of. to. are. locally,. the. Granted. that allowed. system. Given. and. of. the. live around. who. whereupon. ruined.. be. by. local. such. level.. spheres. in Shibuya,. doubt. to. It does. supported. its. and. form,. the. a. and. accommodation. are. today.. people. were. seems. system.. form,. are. and. community,. government,. no. community. on. the. educational. they. that. It might. gradually. their. the. and. If there. in radical. reglOnal. too,. cultural. an. and. Where. ShimoIKitazawa.. as. criticized. school. yacht. It. is lacking. what. Variously. unadulterated. community. BETSUYAKU:. Parco. are. Schooll). entire. though.. method,. for. itself to. possible an. INTERVIEWER:. various. the. it has. large. at. Yacht. to. opposition. one. accommodation.. community,. the. the. already. on. the. lS. mature. well. in. on. have. to. rapid. make. theater,. regeneration. into. compensate. something. appear. to. individual,. direct. accommodate. converges. situation. forced. but. society. Totsuka. systems-the. the vari-. society,. the. of. educational. to. sons. a. to. appearance. 上think. that. it might. of communities. practical. those. and. is obviously. attempts. into. school. and. School. their. send. It is forced. the. extreme. suddenly. have. who. ideologleS. most. testing. crushed.. Totsuka. fathers. the. for. system. educational. produce. individual. in direct opposition.. situation. intermediate. systems-would. disappeared･. it･. studies,. community,. and. Boys. wisdom･. in their. into society･. in. tested. educational. in. Shinjuku, weak. rather. frivolous, roots culture,. in a. the. of today? but. the. super丘cial we. Shibuya. Parco. Jean-Jean. Honda. that. affairs. soil,. the. on. or. it is possible. Theater. may. or. in. represent. framework might. to. ; but. have. culture,. a a. if. local. Kin°-.

(23) Out. kuniya. Ill.. Haiy缶za. a. culture,. INTERVIEWER:. The. the. 1982. The. and. your. 1973. screenplay. Snow. local. the. whole to. community A. cluded. time. a. bad I think. support. that. absorbs. Edo. Then. social. in. of the. kind. tobuild. at. the. the. turmoil;. was. time. was. of the to. need. time. people of the. postw-ar. to. of. There. been. early. Showa. is the. every. a. one. and. for. Restoration.. by. could. the. 丘rst. time,. currency. the. design and Since. a. system,. space. It. counterattack. the color. the. Heian. through. it any the. Of. nation,. depressions, the. Aritomo. insurgency. color.. Showa. contradictions. the. the. emperor. of statesmen. major. Yamagata. move-. The. crises, of. the. demand. a. reform. beginnlng. the. even. form.. mechanism. and. rebellion. degree. of the emperor. vacuum,. of. ideology.. itself from. reorganize. with. against. a. garish an. perpetuate. were. ex-. one. humanity,. movement. more. each. state,. The. is. acts. to. not. energy. Meiji. the. about. this time. at. struggle,. those. bureaucracy. like lt6 Hirobumi. Meiji. 1960s. problem. reconsider,. state. a. The. the. Being. Squad. individual. and. graphic,. to. at. con-. right-wlng.. Die. have. separate. dramaturgy,. The. the. purposes. individuals.. think. more a. able. Meiji.. to. modern it. of nation the. the. It. down. was. is. nothing.. atomizes. the foundation. there. inherent. a. (the. Incident. up. were. have. Squad. 26. appeared. events. true. a. l. little. system,. vacuum.. periods. came. period. to. emperor. and. a. resembles. like. system. amounts. the. who. the. emperor. of. And. in. We'll. as. Image.. was,. The. national that. Die. refor皿Sprang They. works?. policies. We'll. Kita. up. the. and. ,･. furitsumu). take. which. all practical. one.. system. yuki. February. the. Corpse. throughsuch. the. They. important. of. For. time. forms.. yane-ni. governmental. anarchy.. right-wlng. but. too,. the. no. community. of. (shino1-dan);2). Water-bloated. saylng. (1936).. central. kind. a. U.S.. of. the. Squad. in Numbers. of the emperor. both. period. of themselves. of humanity.. the. itself. system. a. the. that,. the. historically. possessed. you. for national. urban. maintain. with. by. Various. sense. most. restoration. ments. a. to. pact. security for. the. attempted they. ln. extremely. of. character,. In Japan. when. 99. Written. 1978. parody. are. the. Incident. Incident,. resistlng. Die. recent. from. movements. 26. We'll. (Kaigenrei),. crisis. destroyed. many. form. own. that. been. were. a. their. had. February. nationalists ample,. the. the. Roof (Taro-. What. 26. Story. include. times-the. nation-date February. great. of the. Law. the. 1974. densetsu) and. no. which. Incident.a). in recent. of Japan. with. Taro"s. on. I feel both. 1930s). early. of. Piles. 26. BETSUYAKU:. enveloped. (Shorgo. Martial. February. experience. deals. kabane), both. mizuku. the. Minoru. the. are. works. which. Noon. of. and. lkki and. your. monogatari),. Legend. (Umiyukaba. Betsuyaku. and. culture.. Among. (Siijide kakareta 1973. Kunio. Shimizu. Issues. Political. the. Sixties,. of the. image. had came. tried at. just.

(24) 100. Robert. time･. a. such. the. full force. one. The us. for. perience ments. found. we. bad･. With. came. a. recess. postwar. symbol;. but. Our. daily. our. emperor. the. the. everyday. formed,. or. orders;. that. else,. to. kind. of. I. try. every-. those. people. had. he supposedly. by. of will in the final. speaking. that the. is established･. However,. else from one. transpos-. Incident.. Whenever. manufactured,. be-. in every. remained. reexperienclng. just. move-. the. it perfectly･. to. the From. system. 26. reex-. 26 Incident.. divinity,. our. Treaty. should. conducted. Ⅰ've concluded. system.. authority. we. emperor. imperial. was. throughsomeone is. traitor. the. of. February. corresponded. dire､ctly, but a. had. of the. of the emperor. communlty. wielded. the. we. who. emperor,s. of. of community. some. struck. Security. maybe. February. view. of the. felt. With. one. invariably. is not. We. problem. be. to. prove. analysis. in the. mechanism. lives･. of those. in the. culminated. Mutual. felt that. thinking. of. renunciation the. We. state･. interested. System. I feel that. way. that. ourselves. the. of. of the. the. reform. doubt. no. nation. U･S･-Japan. of the. renewal. nature. ourselves. for national. start. of. the. consider. the. with. immediacy.. the. against. do. to. of what. tremendous. with. protests. made. 1ng. question. Rolf. behind is. who. mechanism a. lS. group. the authority. the. scenes,. the. made. Issuing. villain. and. manlpulated. have. Japanese These. tions･. how a. to. through. a. the. outside. seem. basis,. mental. At. of technique･ has. that. but. been. is. of the. need. far. l. simply were. by There. was. performed. saw. your. Yes,. :. the. I'm. :. sake. o'f. deeply Red. as. developed. INTERVIEWER. you. and. a. Elegy. involved. as. the. can. emperor. in February there. is. thinking. a. (Sekishoku. group. curious. in. be. in-. could be. would. the. on. by. technique. distinctions. this technique. organized. groups,. on. not. only. judge-. any as. a. seems. matter. something. be. a. connection. Meeting. with. (Kaigi). 1982.. similarity. of the. meetlng'gathering with. of. system. to. appears. And. see･. matter. are. maintained. and. who. of mission,. Japanese. established,. authority. a. groups. military. being. purpose,. for. sense. a. enemy.. distinctions. least. BETSUYAKU. for. without. created. the. the. get. a. no. rela-. hangers-on. It's all. Normally,. example, to. because. INTERVIEWER:. (1981), which. For. the. Japanese. alone･. of mission,. generally. Authority. have. system.. technique. world･. sense. military. hand･. alone･. by. They. the. from. ideology.. no. in human. the group. learned. have. group･. maintaining. maintained. of. the. maintaining. have. They. develop. for. for. they. system･. and. are. dependent. other. emperor. technique. they. techniques. all. maintain. perfect. that. are. the. maintained. techniques. elaborate. the. 1960. aimless merely Security. erejl-)(1980),. I. was. group. in Meeting･. to be gathering.. A As. meeting a. Treaty. struggle,. but. struck. by. much. how. student. when your. I.

(25) Out. political you. bad. attitude. really. changed. to. the. Party. Union. socialism. a. bun°. an. the. at. was. sbackles･. Securlty. we. could. drive. we. could. liberate. way. for. our. from. Party. Thanks was. politics･. don't. I. sense,. issues. could. whether. IV.. The a. ideology. o庁political. doubt. feeling. As. do. it be. I've. barn. to. that. about my. Absurdism, INTERVIEWER:. draw. changed, what. Nakasone. making. even. now･. stance. per. se. has. Liberal. movement.. statements. may. was. sustained of that. ourselves. had. we. human. directly. leave. to. impulses.. out. humanity. of buoyancy.. freed. that. Speaking. Com-. the. away.. kind. a. ex-. separated. from. of having. more. the. one. was. in the middle. were. deeper,. far. accounts. itself. strugg′1es that. upon. government,. That. image,. had. sense. corner. how. see. in breaking. we. a. thereto fore left-wlng. divorced. philosophy. call the. ideologlCal. to. Party. wing. We. organization.. far into. but. new. our. l might. political. a. the And. our. was. how. Party.. struggles. to. Party.. left-wlng. the. succeeded. was. issues, the anti-nuclear. environmental caution. to. as. we. energy. it. least. left. the 1960s. thing. anarchical. Treaty,. was. of liberation.. I think. result,. feel. the. an. biggest. so. that, but. of liberation,. an. see. in. participated. Communist. to. Stalin,. of. afterwards,. We. Communist. the. a. criticism. the. one. Japan. its aeglS.. under. previous. at. There. the. Left.. Communist. of the. to. was. or. its base,. of the. Security. will,. belp･. Prior. There. time･. movement･. from. My. the feeling. not. And,. inconceivable,. antl-government. buoyant. ment,. been. buoyant. a. our. Party･. had to. beyond. clammy,. Communist. the. munist. by. and. if you. liberation･. of. was. Japan-US. factionalism. the. our. at. Nevertheless,. was. from. struggle. left wlng,. from. ours. anything,. of liberation. vis-ぇーvisthe. sense. dark. than. movement. the Soviet. the. we且ed. the. and. time･. symbol but. protests,. Treaty. the. extreme. tremely. It. Kishi. thought,. of. 1960. More. setback. a. were. ail bad. some. movements. through. for. day. the. in China. with,. social. they. mean. been. in Japan. image. still the. was. feeling. great. The. idealistic. complete. the. of. them･. a. Have. Simply,. I. the. have. triangle. a. Soviet. of. may. both. time. formed. of the. Party. time. from. 1960.. since. ideology;. movements. There. the. at. extremely. almost. Communist. separated There. the. and. suffered. Japan. the. years. 101. fundamentally.. political. support･. its image. destruction. the. without left-wing. but. years,. ideal;. Party. were. ideologlCal. as. the. Communist. Minoru. twenty. it's changed. think. The. in later. was. With. I don't. movements･. right. Betsuyaku. and. in those. changed. 1960s. of the. Struggles. Communist. Kunio. politically? Well,. lefトwing. not. Shimizu. apparently. BETSUYAKU: Securlty. Sixties,. of the. In that on. specific. issues. proper,. Democratic. Party. govern-. Ⅰ've become. a. Of. well. these. have. bit cautious.. increased,. but. changed.. Beckett You. have. written. fairy. tales,. and. also. rather. absurdist. l.